meowgosaurus
kyuubeymon:

bramblepatch:

The thing is, though, you can say “it’s only a story” all you like, but how a person relates to stories says a lot about how they relate to the real world, because stories are how we learn to relate to elements of the real world outside of our immediate experience. If you accept something uncritically in fiction, then when you come across a similar issue or dynamic in the real world, you’re probably not going to spend a lot of time examining it. On the other hand, if a story has told you “this is something that is exceptional - exceptionally good, exceptionally problematic, either way, something outside of the ordinary and deserving of your attention,” you’re primed to examine and engage with it if and when you encounter it in the real world.
We all have stories that influenced us deeply at a formative stage, and I think it’s entirely valid to be concerned with what this story is demonstrating to the younger members of the fandom. There are kids in this fandom for whom Homestuck is filling a similar role as, for me, did Harry Potter, or Digger, or Discworld. And I think that’s a good thing, over all! Homestuck has some great things to say about the nature of friendship, and personal responsibility in the face of the inevitable, and the value of humor. But it also means that those of us who have our heads more or less screwed on maybe ought to take a bit of responsibility in making sure that the younger crowd recognizes that as talented and well-meaning as Hussie is, he’s not infallible.

I think OP is talking more about the fandom fighting going on, how it seems to behave as if the most imperative queer issue of the day is about how you depict Dirk Strider etc.’s sexuality.
I understand you do have some good points, but I think Homestuck was never meant to be something that a younger crowd grows up with and looks up to.  I mean seriously Homestuck looks more like something aimed at people 17 and over. 
Although its good for kids to grow up with great stories, kids have to be taught to think critically about them too.  You can’t just let stories raise kids or teens, and you can’t put the burden of lessons soley on an author who is only human.  This runs into the same reasons why I think the concept of childhood role models and heroes is rather stupid; it puts a human being up to a standard of perfection that if that human fails it the many children who look up to them become dissapointed.  At least they get a cold slap of reality early on.

Which is why, I suppose, I’m arguing that a large, critical fanbase is a good thing. Practically speaking, it doesn’t matter whether HS was meant to be a kids’ story - there’s no question that there’s a strong contingent of young teenagers in the fandom, some of whom have been reading the comic for a couple of years now. Saying “well it’s not really for you” isn’t going to make them skip off to find more age appropriate material. (What does “age appropriate” mean for a fourteen-year-old, anyway? Aside from the strong language, Homestuck is positively tame compared to a lot of PG13 movies. YA Lit frequently covers very dark themes, and some kids that age are already moving on to “grownup” books.) And insofar as Homestuck has never been behind a warning page for adult material, I think we have to consider that Hussie has always been open to young readers.
I suppose I’m invoking a “it takes a village” mentality - the younger fans are here, they’re reading the comic, they’re following the fandom. The fandom ought to take some responsibility for the safety of our younger members. Sometimes that means making sure resources are available for topics like con etiquette and safety. Sometimes that means open discourse about the issues raised in the comic, both the ones handled well and the ones that could have been done better.
(And while I certainly agree that Dirk’s sexuality is not “the imperative queer issue of the day,” I do kind of feel like the question of how we relate to members of the queer community who are not comfortable with the “standard” labels and identities is an important one?)

kyuubeymon:

bramblepatch:

The thing is, though, you can say “it’s only a story” all you like, but how a person relates to stories says a lot about how they relate to the real world, because stories are how we learn to relate to elements of the real world outside of our immediate experience. If you accept something uncritically in fiction, then when you come across a similar issue or dynamic in the real world, you’re probably not going to spend a lot of time examining it. On the other hand, if a story has told you “this is something that is exceptional - exceptionally good, exceptionally problematic, either way, something outside of the ordinary and deserving of your attention,” you’re primed to examine and engage with it if and when you encounter it in the real world.

We all have stories that influenced us deeply at a formative stage, and I think it’s entirely valid to be concerned with what this story is demonstrating to the younger members of the fandom. There are kids in this fandom for whom Homestuck is filling a similar role as, for me, did Harry Potter, or Digger, or Discworld. And I think that’s a good thing, over all! Homestuck has some great things to say about the nature of friendship, and personal responsibility in the face of the inevitable, and the value of humor. But it also means that those of us who have our heads more or less screwed on maybe ought to take a bit of responsibility in making sure that the younger crowd recognizes that as talented and well-meaning as Hussie is, he’s not infallible.

I think OP is talking more about the fandom fighting going on, how it seems to behave as if the most imperative queer issue of the day is about how you depict Dirk Strider etc.’s sexuality.

I understand you do have some good points, but I think Homestuck was never meant to be something that a younger crowd grows up with and looks up to.  I mean seriously Homestuck looks more like something aimed at people 17 and over. 

Although its good for kids to grow up with great stories, kids have to be taught to think critically about them too.  You can’t just let stories raise kids or teens, and you can’t put the burden of lessons soley on an author who is only human.  This runs into the same reasons why I think the concept of childhood role models and heroes is rather stupid; it puts a human being up to a standard of perfection that if that human fails it the many children who look up to them become dissapointed.  At least they get a cold slap of reality early on.

Which is why, I suppose, I’m arguing that a large, critical fanbase is a good thing. Practically speaking, it doesn’t matter whether HS was meant to be a kids’ story - there’s no question that there’s a strong contingent of young teenagers in the fandom, some of whom have been reading the comic for a couple of years now. Saying “well it’s not really for you” isn’t going to make them skip off to find more age appropriate material. (What does “age appropriate” mean for a fourteen-year-old, anyway? Aside from the strong language, Homestuck is positively tame compared to a lot of PG13 movies. YA Lit frequently covers very dark themes, and some kids that age are already moving on to “grownup” books.) And insofar as Homestuck has never been behind a warning page for adult material, I think we have to consider that Hussie has always been open to young readers.

I suppose I’m invoking a “it takes a village” mentality - the younger fans are here, they’re reading the comic, they’re following the fandom. The fandom ought to take some responsibility for the safety of our younger members. Sometimes that means making sure resources are available for topics like con etiquette and safety. Sometimes that means open discourse about the issues raised in the comic, both the ones handled well and the ones that could have been done better.

(And while I certainly agree that Dirk’s sexuality is not “the imperative queer issue of the day,” I do kind of feel like the question of how we relate to members of the queer community who are not comfortable with the “standard” labels and identities is an important one?)

unpopular-hs-opinions
The thing is, though, you can say “it’s only a story” all you like, but how a person relates to stories says a lot about how they relate to the real world, because stories are how we learn to relate to elements of the real world outside of our immediate experience. If you accept something uncritically in fiction, then when you come across a similar issue or dynamic in the real world, you’re probably not going to spend a lot of time examining it. On the other hand, if a story has told you “this is something that is exceptional - exceptionally good, exceptionally problematic, either way, something outside of the ordinary and deserving of your attention,” you’re primed to examine and engage with it if and when you encounter it in the real world.
We all have stories that influenced us deeply at a formative stage, and I think it’s entirely valid to be concerned with what this story is demonstrating to the younger members of the fandom. There are kids in this fandom for whom Homestuck is filling a similar role as, for me, did Harry Potter, or Digger, or Discworld. And I think that’s a good thing, over all! Homestuck has some great things to say about the nature of friendship, and personal responsibility in the face of the inevitable, and the value of humor. But it also means that those of us who have our heads more or less screwed on maybe ought to take a bit of responsibility in making sure that the younger crowd recognizes that as talented and well-meaning as Hussie is, he’s not infallible.

The thing is, though, you can say “it’s only a story” all you like, but how a person relates to stories says a lot about how they relate to the real world, because stories are how we learn to relate to elements of the real world outside of our immediate experience. If you accept something uncritically in fiction, then when you come across a similar issue or dynamic in the real world, you’re probably not going to spend a lot of time examining it. On the other hand, if a story has told you “this is something that is exceptional - exceptionally good, exceptionally problematic, either way, something outside of the ordinary and deserving of your attention,” you’re primed to examine and engage with it if and when you encounter it in the real world.

We all have stories that influenced us deeply at a formative stage, and I think it’s entirely valid to be concerned with what this story is demonstrating to the younger members of the fandom. There are kids in this fandom for whom Homestuck is filling a similar role as, for me, did Harry Potter, or Digger, or Discworld. And I think that’s a good thing, over all! Homestuck has some great things to say about the nature of friendship, and personal responsibility in the face of the inevitable, and the value of humor. But it also means that those of us who have our heads more or less screwed on maybe ought to take a bit of responsibility in making sure that the younger crowd recognizes that as talented and well-meaning as Hussie is, he’s not infallible.

unpopular-hs-opinions
Reducing the Lalondes’ substance abuse plot arc (because Rose’s alcohol abuse has to be understood not only in the context of her own circumstances, but also in the context of Roxy’s alcoholism, both pre-and post-scratch) to Rose being a “drunkard.” Real class act there, OP.
I mean you don’t have to like that aspect of her story, but if you were honestly surprised that the obsessive, morbid girl who grew up in a situation where alcohol abuse was the norm and had a whole arc in which she almost drove herself into oblivion by using mind-altering powers in the game would turn to drink during a stressful and monotonous period in her life, I kind of have to wonder how closely you were paying attention when you thought she was “important.”

Reducing the Lalondes’ substance abuse plot arc (because Rose’s alcohol abuse has to be understood not only in the context of her own circumstances, but also in the context of Roxy’s alcoholism, both pre-and post-scratch) to Rose being a “drunkard.” Real class act there, OP.

I mean you don’t have to like that aspect of her story, but if you were honestly surprised that the obsessive, morbid girl who grew up in a situation where alcohol abuse was the norm and had a whole arc in which she almost drove herself into oblivion by using mind-altering powers in the game would turn to drink during a stressful and monotonous period in her life, I kind of have to wonder how closely you were paying attention when you thought she was “important.”

unpopular-hs-opinions
La! Look at the expert on troll sexuality over here!
This would be a really great point if not for the fact that romantic and sexual orientation are frequently correlated but not actually the same thing. It’s perfectly possible to be romantically attracted to someone you don’t have any sexual feelings for, and there’s nothing sexual about the conciliatory quadrants. 
Also Hussie never said Kanaya was a lesbian, he said that from a human perspective, we would recognize her as a lesbian, which is a different thing. She may be primarily or even exclusively attracted to girls, but Earth Human Lesbian identity politics don’t apply to her because she doesn’t have that cultural background.

La! Look at the expert on troll sexuality over here!

This would be a really great point if not for the fact that romantic and sexual orientation are frequently correlated but not actually the same thing. It’s perfectly possible to be romantically attracted to someone you don’t have any sexual feelings for, and there’s nothing sexual about the conciliatory quadrants. 

Also Hussie never said Kanaya was a lesbian, he said that from a human perspective, we would recognize her as a lesbian, which is a different thing. She may be primarily or even exclusively attracted to girls, but Earth Human Lesbian identity politics don’t apply to her because she doesn’t have that cultural background.

newfriendly
newfriendly:

As if troll biology isn’t already magic anyhow. Hemimetabolous? Holometabolous? Bullshitmetabolous? We just don’t know.

If you ask me, what the fandom needs is more hermaphroditic trolls that don’t have the direct-vagina-analog + prehensile-penis-analog construction, as I see no reason to assume penetrative sex in a species that does not use internal fertilization.
But no one was asking me.
Because that’d be weird.

newfriendly:

As if troll biology isn’t already magic anyhow. Hemimetabolous? Holometabolous? Bullshitmetabolous? We just don’t know.

If you ask me, what the fandom needs is more hermaphroditic trolls that don’t have the direct-vagina-analog + prehensile-penis-analog construction, as I see no reason to assume penetrative sex in a species that does not use internal fertilization.

But no one was asking me.

Because that’d be weird.

unpopular-hs-opinions
Are you just now figuring out that Homestuck can be incredibly dark? Extreme peril, injury, and death has been the order of the day for a very long time - not to mention harsh profanity from literally everyone, implied sexual situations, consent issues and implied sexual violence, mental health issues, substance abuse… No one’s marketing it to little kids, dude. (And if you think it’s too strong of material for teenagers, you obviously haven’t been in your library’s YA Lit section lately.)
Also I’ve never understood the insistence that the different colors of blood “softens” the gore somehow. You can identify with Kanaya as a living, thinking, valuable person in spite of her horns, grey skin, and fangs, but the fact that she bleeds jade green is too much of a stretch?

Are you just now figuring out that Homestuck can be incredibly dark? Extreme peril, injury, and death has been the order of the day for a very long time - not to mention harsh profanity from literally everyone, implied sexual situations, consent issues and implied sexual violence, mental health issues, substance abuse… No one’s marketing it to little kids, dude. (And if you think it’s too strong of material for teenagers, you obviously haven’t been in your library’s YA Lit section lately.)

Also I’ve never understood the insistence that the different colors of blood “softens” the gore somehow. You can identify with Kanaya as a living, thinking, valuable person in spite of her horns, grey skin, and fangs, but the fact that she bleeds jade green is too much of a stretch?

kono-sora-no-hate-ni
kono-sora-no-hate-ni:

yo i’ve always wondered if aranea was too good to be true honestly. she could very well be hiding something, i’ve suspected too… but hey, we don’t know for sure yet. still though it’d be one hell of a twist. i mean, if it did happen i guess we could say we saw it coming, but if it doesn’t happen then we can say it’d be a cool plot thing.

I’m not even sure that it’d be that she’s hiding anything - more that she just really likes to hear herself talk and she’s got a high opinion of her own intelligence, and then she starts talking about stuff she doesn’t really know anything about, but no one else knows enough to contradict her so she just keeps theorizing and presenting it as fact. She may not even be aware she’s doing it - Vriska doesn’t always have the strongest grip on reality, it may run in the family.

kono-sora-no-hate-ni:

yo i’ve always wondered if aranea was too good to be true honestly. she could very well be hiding something, i’ve suspected too… but hey, we don’t know for sure yet. still though it’d be one hell of a twist. i mean, if it did happen i guess we could say we saw it coming, but if it doesn’t happen then we can say it’d be a cool plot thing.

I’m not even sure that it’d be that she’s hiding anything - more that she just really likes to hear herself talk and she’s got a high opinion of her own intelligence, and then she starts talking about stuff she doesn’t really know anything about, but no one else knows enough to contradict her so she just keeps theorizing and presenting it as fact. She may not even be aware she’s doing it - Vriska doesn’t always have the strongest grip on reality, it may run in the family.

unpopular-hs-opinions
Skin color is a very complicated trait, genetically, and the second example actually is possible.
Not probable, but the ectoclones are one big bundle of improbabilities anyway. If you can buy that they can survive crashing to earth on meteors from beyond this plane of existence, I don’t see why an uneven distribution of inherited genes controlling skin color should be out of the question, especially since they were all genetically engineered in a lab.

Skin color is a very complicated trait, genetically, and the second example actually is possible.

Not probable, but the ectoclones are one big bundle of improbabilities anyway. If you can buy that they can survive crashing to earth on meteors from beyond this plane of existence, I don’t see why an uneven distribution of inherited genes controlling skin color should be out of the question, especially since they were all genetically engineered in a lab.